Should the Dolphins mortgage future for present?
Let's make one thing clear right away: The NFL is a today league.
You may hear some coaches and general managers talking about making the right moves that don't mortgage the future. You may hear them talk the good talk about managing the cap now so it doesn't overwhelm them later.
But let's face it, talking the talk is easier than walking the walk. Which leads me, of course, to Trent Green.
I still don't really understand why the Dolphins are so enamored with the soon-to-be 37-year-old Green other than one indisputable, undeniable reason: He gives Miami the best chance to win in 2007. He knows the offense. He has a comfort level with his primary offensive coaches (Cam Cameron and Terry Shea) and he has an ability (when not injured) to make plays.
Of course, that says nothing for the fact Green is a rental at best. He isn't the club's quarterback of tomorrow. He isn't on the upside of his career. He's all about today and now -- whenever that time period finally begins once a trade is made.
So having said all that, do you as fans and amateur general managers, believe the Dolphins should give up a fifth round pick to the KC Chiefs for Green? The team is offering a sixth now while the Chiefs want a fourth.
Do you, assuming you have the franchise's best interest in mind, cave to KC president Carl Peterson for the sake of getting your 2007 quarterback in the fold? Do you give up a fifth-rounder for a guy who may only be around one year, two max?
And, by the way, if you decide you don't do that, you have to realize you may not get Green at all. For all of Miami's confidence that Green will be released eventually, that the Chiefs will eventually come to there senses, there is no absolute guarantee that will happen.
So the Dolphins risk having a quarterback they apparently don't have a lot of faith in (Daunte Culpepper) because they didn't give up a fifth-round pick that could turn into Zach Thomas, but more likely could be Manny Wright.
Now you understand the situation Miami GM Randy Mueller is in.
What do you do? Do you make the deal and move on or do you stand firm over a fifth-round pick?
Do you guard tomorrow's pick like it was treasure? Or do you simply talk the talk, but don't walk the walk?
You may hear some coaches and general managers talking about making the right moves that don't mortgage the future. You may hear them talk the good talk about managing the cap now so it doesn't overwhelm them later.
But let's face it, talking the talk is easier than walking the walk. Which leads me, of course, to Trent Green.
I still don't really understand why the Dolphins are so enamored with the soon-to-be 37-year-old Green other than one indisputable, undeniable reason: He gives Miami the best chance to win in 2007. He knows the offense. He has a comfort level with his primary offensive coaches (Cam Cameron and Terry Shea) and he has an ability (when not injured) to make plays.
Of course, that says nothing for the fact Green is a rental at best. He isn't the club's quarterback of tomorrow. He isn't on the upside of his career. He's all about today and now -- whenever that time period finally begins once a trade is made.
So having said all that, do you as fans and amateur general managers, believe the Dolphins should give up a fifth round pick to the KC Chiefs for Green? The team is offering a sixth now while the Chiefs want a fourth.
Do you, assuming you have the franchise's best interest in mind, cave to KC president Carl Peterson for the sake of getting your 2007 quarterback in the fold? Do you give up a fifth-rounder for a guy who may only be around one year, two max?
And, by the way, if you decide you don't do that, you have to realize you may not get Green at all. For all of Miami's confidence that Green will be released eventually, that the Chiefs will eventually come to there senses, there is no absolute guarantee that will happen.
So the Dolphins risk having a quarterback they apparently don't have a lot of faith in (Daunte Culpepper) because they didn't give up a fifth-round pick that could turn into Zach Thomas, but more likely could be Manny Wright.
Now you understand the situation Miami GM Randy Mueller is in.
What do you do? Do you make the deal and move on or do you stand firm over a fifth-round pick?
Do you guard tomorrow's pick like it was treasure? Or do you simply talk the talk, but don't walk the walk?
posted by Armando Salguero at 2:43 PM
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108 Comments:
I think the reason the phins haven't upped the price is because they feel fine with who they have, OR they have something up their sleves.
Remember b4 the draft they were quiet about everything, they let everyone think they were going for Quinn and then took the guy they really wanted in Ginn. Right or wrong they played it correctly to get who they wanted. Maybe they have a plan at QB and are letting us all go crazy over Green while making a move somewhere else. Armando, is anyone else available?
Trent Green is much more likely to contribute to the Dolphins in a meaningful way -- and sooner -- than any player on whom the team spends a late-round draft pick. In addition, he will serve as an outstanding influence on John Beck, a much better role model than Culpepper. (I just don't see Culpper as a teacher, even by example.)
Get it done already, give up a 5th for Green. Then try to move Daunte to Atlanta for the same 5th.
KC isn't going $7.2 million salary cap hiot to keep a QB they don't want just to punish the Dolphins for a middle round pick. Except for Green's time with the team in the off-season workouts, the Fish lose nothing by waiting KC out.
Get the deal done! Send them a 5TH ROUD PICK at best, then trade Culpepper for a higher pick, like a 3rd or 4th if possible. Let Green groom Beck for a year or so, then the investment in Green will be well worth the 5th round pick. remember Phillips, Breeze is gone. Just my opinion.
OOPS I meant Phillip Rivers
Yes Armando I would pull the trigger on a 5th round pick to bring in guy like Trent Green. I still believe that Trent Green is the right guy for this team. He gives the Dolphins the ability to win now, while being an outstanding mentor for our rookie QB John Beck. While both Coach Cameron and Coach Shea are both great developers of quarterbacks, sometimes a rookie benefits by having a guy who's been through the ups and downs of the NFL like a Trent Green. Back in 1993, Indiana Quarterback Trent Green was an unheralded, unheard of, an otherwise little known 8th round draft pick of the San Diego Chargers. Fourteen seasons later, Trent is regarded is a smart, poised, and accomplished quarterback. A Pro Bowler, and a man that had three straight 4,000+ yds passing seasons.
I don't know about you guys, but that's the kind of veteran quarterback I want to have overseeing our new rookie. John Beck can learn so much for Trent by just watching him from the sidelines, even if it's just for one season. Think about it, Trent comes off the field after a touchdown pass, all of the sudden you hear, "Hey John, come here kid. I want to show what I was thinking about and looking for during that drive." Or Trent will be coming off the field after an interception (hopefully there will be very few of those). All of the sudden you hear, "Hey kid, come here. You need to know what went wrong on that play." Of course it's vice versa when John Beck is on the field. When Beck coms off the field after a TD or INT, Trent is going to be right there to lend a helping hand.
Trent Green is unselfish, classy, and a pro's pro. Unlike Daunte Culpepper who is extremely selfish, and a primadonna.
I think all of you who think we should give up anything for Trent Green are CRAZY!!!!! Why would you risk any pick for a possible concussion case!!! Further more you can't trade Daunte his worth is nothing!! I think coach Cameron should let Beck,Lemon and Culpepper battle it out in preseason.
What happens if we trade for Green and he goes down in the first preseason game with yet another concussion, we release Daunte and he goes to another team only to make the Pro Bowl next year , and Brady Quinn wins rookie of the year!!!I think this is how this situation is going to play out. And at the end of next season we'll be demanding that both Cameron, and Muller both be released!!!Ultimately because they chose to draft a special teams player in the first round of the draft, an injured player at that!!!!
Daunte a primadonna? What planet you from?
If Trent is genuine that he is willing to compete for the QB spot, and not assume and whine that he was promised the starting job, then pull the trigger on a 5th rounder. That said, I would not cut Daunte loose unless Green clearly outplays him in training camp. Decide the fate of Daunte after giving him a fair chance to prove himself. And Green ought to be made aware before he were to come to phinland that they might keep and start Daunte, assuming Daunte wins the training camp race.
For me the real question is, do you want to cut loose Daunte and maybe, maybe, get 2 good years out of Green or do you see if Daunte can give you 5-7 great years as we all hoped he would when he came to the Dolphins last year. I think the Daunte gamble makes more sense than the Trent gamble.
Make the trade, win now. They drafted Beck so now they need to make the best of that, which is to trade that 5th rndr which can be easliy compensated with the trade of Daunte Culpepper. Green knows the offense well enough to execute it, and we have 2 very talented recievers (Chambers, Ginn) and Booker is solid. It is the Dolphins best option to have Green at the saddle a yr or two becs Beck is an old fart and BETTER be ready in 2 yrs.
Arielsays
One of the problmes right now is Cam is gaurding his situation prety good. We really dont know how he feels about Pep/Green/Cleo. And that is what is fueling all this.
You don't give up the pick. Miami needs new talent. They are going nowhere this year, and will go nowhere for a long time. Despite claims to the contrary, they are REBUILDING and NEED draft picks.
I don't understand some people's obession with calling Trent injury prone. Since joining KC, he started 80 straight games. Just because he had a concussion doesnt mean he is due for another one.
The Dolphins are looking for Trent to come in short term as a transition until Beck is ready to play. Giving a 5th round pick is nothing. Wannie and Speilman would probably given up a 1st rounder for him.
i think they are playing the situation perfect!no way is the guy worth more than a sixth(even that might be too much)let the chiefs choke on his contract if they won't budge!sign him as a ufa later this summer and let lemon and beck develop in camp,maybe one or both can do the job!
So a 5th rounder is mortgaging the future?
Please take a look at the last 10+ years worth of drafts and point out how many impact players came in the 5th round.
In Green, you are getting a very serviceable starter for 2 years who will be grooming John Beck... WHO SUPPOSEDLY IS OUR FUTURE.
Would you rather have that Playstation QB Culpepper teach beck or a bonafied Pocket QB?
Sorry, but that is a ridiculous question and discussion topic.
I'd rather talk about why that jerk-off father of the Cardinals pitcher has the balls to blame his drunk driving sons death on everyone except his son. Pathetic.
So a 5th rounder is mortgaging the future?
Please take a look at the last 10+ years worth of drafts and point out how many impact players came in the 5th round.
In Green, you are getting a very serviceable starter for 2 years who will be grooming John Beck... WHO SUPPOSEDLY IS OUR FUTURE.
Would you rather have that Playstation QB Culpepper teach beck or a bonafied Pocket QB?
Sorry, but that is a ridiculous question and discussion topic.
I'd rather talk about why that jerk-off father of the Cardinals pitcher has the balls to blame his drunk driving sons death on everyone except his son. Pathetic.
So a 5th rounder is mortgaging the future?
Please take a look at the last 10+ years worth of drafts and point out how many impact players came in the 5th round.
In Green, you are getting a very serviceable starter for 2 years who will be grooming John Beck... WHO SUPPOSEDLY IS OUR FUTURE.
Would you rather have that Playstation QB Culpepper teach beck or a bonafied Pocket QB?
Sorry, but that is a ridiculous question and discussion topic.
I'd rather talk about why that jerk-off father of the Cardinals pitcher has the balls to blame his drunk driving sons death on everyone except his son. Pathetic.
what??? no way. I think you have to at least see what cpep has in the june mini camp before you even think about giving up draft picks for green
Phins got nothin' to lose waiting Green to get cut. If & so the Chiefs keep him, oh well. Can't give up on those picks, especially because we all know that the Phins will still be at the bottom of the AFC East & we'll probably be at top 10 pick for '08, those picks will be important for departing players or for rebuilding. We'll see if C-Pep is good enough to play. If Cam says he's fit to be evaluated & doesn't grasp the new offensive system, cut him or trade him (if he still has value). Why not just put Beck in & get his feet wet is looking like the best move.
we gave up a second rounder for cpep. Can we at least see what a healthy cpep will do before givin up more draft picks for another quarterback?
I think as long as you give up no more than a 5th rounder for Trent Green it is building for the future despite losing the pick.
The Fins are trying to get younger along the whole Offense and it does neither WRs, TEs or OL any good to be playing with an inexperienced, mistake-prone QB. Maybe the QB will learn by fire (though many just flame-out) but your young WRs pick up bad habits, the OL will have to hold their blocks too long, etc when the QB is inexperienced.
I think Randy/Cam see Green as ideal since he knows Cam's offense, is a good mentor supposedly for Beck, and has a finite starting window so you don't have to worry about a future QB controversy.
In essence a 5th or 6th round pick buys you stability at QB that lets you groom the rest of a young offense. I wouldn't give up more than a 5th though.
DG
For a quarterback that has one year maybe two left a sixth round pick to bring him in early is worth it. That is the value of that pick.
Giving anymore for a player that is not wanted by his old club because he is too old and expensive is just foolish.
I also think this front office realizes that they have to change the perception that Miami will rollover in trade situations.
"we gave up a second rounder for cpep. Can we at least see what a healthy cpep will do before givin up more draft picks for another quarterback?"
I think I agree with this statement more so than the others. I'd like to see if he has anything left, especially for that price.
I say let both compete (don't give up s**t KC to get him, they'll release him in June) durng preseason for the job. Green would probably win out because he knows the offense and is more the system QB than CPep. Dude's got a gone as big as Danny's.
Ok, I want to say this strickly out of fustration. Let's solve this problem very easily. EVERYONE STFU ABOUT TRENT GREEN. lets describe him, over the hill, washed up, troy aikman replica, one more blow to the head, kurt warner in red, ultimately some one not fit to wear aqua and orange unless the chiefs gave us a 6th round pick to occupy his salary!!!
yea trent green can come off the sidelines and give pointers to our future superstar... if he was ment to do that, why isnt he doing that to brodie whatever his name in KC for the 7.2 million this year
lets shut up, the media will not force this trade. If the media can concoct this trade, it'll have the same percussions as the media begging for nick saban 2 years ago. we all remember how that turned out
GO CULPEPPER!!! Superbowl in 07 with the real pro bowl QB.... yea i said it. although if green becomes a dolphin, i may be cheering for the jets this year. I dont want the AFC's version of Kurt Warner to disgrace our team. Think NY GIANTS 2 years ago. point proven
I think there is no need to pursue Trent. The Chiefs cant keep him at that price, unless they just dont believe in their other two QB's, or they just want to burn the 7Mil. Either way, Miami has paid plenty in draft picks for less than average talent. You have a young QB in Beck and some vets to back him up. Let him learn like other rookie QB's. If we have a bad year, more high round picks with which to build the team. That is what the niners are doing as we speak. We will also save on the cap dollars. I think we have a better team than the Browns, and you can bet they are going to start brady this year, no later than week 6. If Trent is released, than we can think about signing him, if needed to mentor Beck. Otherwise we should not under any circumstances give a single pick for this 37yr old!!!!!!!!!! I think Cam and Randy did a solid job with the draft and house cleaning. I hope they do the right thing where Trent is concerned. Go Phins!!
How about the QB curse in Miami? I think that Green will succumb to it and be a flop anyway. He's too old.
Cameron is going to find that by going with his good ol boy philosophy, it will take years to build a dominate franchise. (Tony Dungy?) As time goes by, I am having less and less confidence in him. I see him as another mistake in the long run. It appears that there will at least 2 more drafts before we are contenders. Lets face it, its a rebuilding year. After Ginn gets hurt, early, everything will definitely start to take shape for another let down.
I want there to be a battle for QB. Releasing/Trading C-Pep is a horrible move. (Which is what everyone expects) As for mentoring Beck, BS. I thought Cameron was the QB guru?
So I think that giving anything up for Green will be too much. Wait for his release. if that doesn't happen, then GOOD!
ARMANDO! Why don't you write about Cameron appearing to flip flop on his statement about appointing QB's to starting position. I do believe thats what I have read that he was told to never appoint someone to that position, and that they must earn it. Call his ass out, demand a battle. Instead, we get some short, lame ass remarks about not judging him until he's 100%. He needs to have a pair, and say he wants Dante to prove to him thats he's the man. Thats it. Thats all I want. Then I would respect him. Instead he acts like a girl, and makes you guess what he wants. Major bush league.
Its a "today league" if you are on the cusp of making a run at the superbowl. Teams who are one or two players away from running deep into the playoffs will leverage the future to make that run. This is dicey stuff for personnel managers and Coaches who are feeling the intense heat to win now. Other teams, like Miami, are on the other side of the coin. Thru a series of blunders they gambled away draft picks and invested in expensive free agents who did little to take their team to the next level. A team in the later position has really only one choice...Build back up through the draft and hold onto your picks like they are gold. Every team needs to access where they are, create a plan for re-arming and get to the point whereby they have the luxury to spend the money or a draft pick for that free agent who can take you to the next level. Unfortunately for Miami, I haven't seen to many free agents in the last few years who delivered the goods. But then again, perhaps it was more about saving a coaches neck then any realistic run into the playoffs. Coaches with the power to make personel decisions are even scarier and I haven't seen one yet who did it effectively or with any intelligence or know-how. I'm Glad to see that Mueller and Cam seem to understand the rebuilding process. I hope the plan comes together quickly and Miami rises up to dominate the east again.
While I do think that Green still has some gas in the tank, I believe Culpepper has more upside and the Dolphins do NOT need to win now.
I do not think anyone should give up a draft pick for a one year rental, unless it's a 7th rounder.
In the type of offense that Cam Cameron will run Dante Culpepper will struggle. He can't read defenses at the line of scrimmage and in this new offense that must happen. Culpepper uses his legs to move around until he figures it out.
Can Kansas City afford to have between $12 and $15 million of cap space to carry 3 QB this year? This is a team that tried to trade their starting running back right around the draft because they couldn't get him signed long term after this year.
Peterson also hesitates to trade Green to Miami because he could make Miami a playoff contender and threat immediately. It's not about Green being a bandaid for one or two years, but becoming a 10-6 team.
Not every fifth or sixth pick becomes a great player, but Green offers Miami an immediate chance to be competitive and allows our new QB to learn for a year or two behind an above average quarterback who's polished and respected in the league.
It's really more important for Miami to get the trade done to help the present as well as their future. He could be the difference between Beck being a 12 year starter or another never will be that Maimi has been blessed with since Marino's departure. MAKE THE TRADE MIAMI AND GET THIS CRAP DONE.
Let the Chiefs cut him, because Beck gets more reps, and he needs them. The only way that you learn is to play and gel with the team, not watching an older guy play while your arm is cold. terry Shea is there to teach him, he taught green, so why cant Shea and Cam guide the young man? It's their specialty and responsibility to lead this young man to lead our team. Beck has the arm, the smarts and humility as well as leadership to get the job done. Lemon is also in the loop and he may rise up and take the job, as we need youth to be ready as next yr we dont need to draft another starter at QB, we need cb,SS,FS, lb Ol and Dl for the future.
Would you trade Zach Thomas for Green? Don't give up a 5th or 6th which could be another Zach Thomas, who was drafted in the 5th rd.
1) Is Trent Green the second coming of Gus Frerotte? I think so.
2) Does Green give Miami a better chance to win in 2007, or does a healthy Daunte Culpepper? No one would argue that a healthy Culpepper is a superior talent to Green.
3) Why is everyone up in arms over the delay in consumating a deal for Green? It's Trent Green people...37 years old and concussion prone...not Dan Marino in his prime.
Want to worry about something? How about protecting whoever-it-is that ends up playing QB.
Making a trade of a 5th round pick for a proven Pro Bowler who will contribute for a year or two, is NOT 'mortgaging the future.'
Trading your entire draft to take Ricky Williams, Mr. Ditka, IS 'mortgaging the future.'
Mueller's patience during the draft paid off in that he got the players he planned to take. I'm betting that same patience in this situation pays off again.
For those of you who continually refer to Green as 'concussed,' concussions HEAL. He is no longer concussed. O.K? Also, this old fart is a year younger than Brett Favre, who has taken a greater beating over his career than Green. Comparatively, Green is a spring chicken.
With the cap and free agency what they are, regardless of what course teams take to build for the future, they'll still want to win today.
If Mueller and Cameron sat you down and told you, "We're trading Taylor, Thomas, and gutting the team to stockpile picks for the 'future,'" you'd be screaming bloody murder. Everybody wants to win games, even while they are 'rebuilding.'
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I don't recall Frerotte playing in any Pro Bowl, Chris.
Green is healthy; we don't know if Pep ever will be - AND he is just a play away from havong his knee destroyed again. Have you ever considered that CaMue might have determined that Green fits the offense better than Pep?
The O-line will be better this year. Wait and see.
I think the pick needs to be a conditional one. Offer a 6th rounder for now, but maybe as much as a 4th rounder if Green plays well (i.e. Pro Bowl or something similar)
Culpepper deserves a shot, true. It's sad to cast him off, in an ideal world it would be better to give him a chance to prove himself. But we drafted Beck in the second round. Beck is obviously the QB of the Dolphin's future so he needs to be groomed and given the chance to grow. Trent Green might be on the downside of his career, but I feel he is a better mentor for Beck than Culpepper is.
Cameron is known for grooming QBs, Phillip Rivers learned under Drew Brees. Drew Brees learned under another "over the hill" QB, Doug Flutie. (Although Cameron wasn't in San Diego at that time.) Rivers speaks freely about how invaluable learning under Brees was to his success. Brees likewise speaks that way of Flutie.
In the end, the Fins aren't really spending a 6th rounder on Green. They're spending an extra 6th rounder on Beck. Cameron is making a good move, putting our future QB in a position to succeed. After years of putting QBs (who were never that good to begin with) in a position to fail, this is a refreshing change.
no more than a 6th round pick.if we get green. where are we going ?to the play offs, play offs. not likley. with our luck we will go 8 and 8 miss the play offs play offs. and pick in the middle of the draft. if not a 6 th go with what we got cleo, pep ,beck
OK lets clear something up ALL you folks out there talking about how heathly Trent Green is obviously don't know about server concussions so let me explain. After you have one the chances of having another one greatly increase,(can anyone say QB Maddox!!) and being that every defense out there will be looking at our weaknesses they'll be trying to give old Trent another concussion!!!!
Further more, has anyone considered why the New England Patroits are so good?? Maybe because the coach designs plays based on his players talent, not the other way around !!! If Cam really was about winning today he would make an effective offensive game plan based on Culpepper, and the rest of the offenses talent. By him introducing a brand new system the entire team is at a disadvantage and it will take more than a year for us to reach the playoffs!!!!
Why give up a fith rounder for a 37 year old QB who will probably contribute for one year (if he makes it through the year)? If Daunte is healthy why can't he run the offense? I would open the battle to all three with the thought that Beck will be 3rd string all year...no sense in putting him in a position to fail. The hope would be that Daunte or Cleo would play well enough to generate a 3-4th round draft pick, then use Beck next year....Green makes no sense at this point, no sense at all.
I agree with you on one point,the Fins should close the deal right away and get Green into camp.However,to compare Green,a proven commodity,to M. Wright,a proven cry-baby,is ridiculous!
j dizzle said...
"OK lets clear something up ALL you folks out there talking about how heathly Trent Green is obviously don't know about server (sic)concussions so let me explain. After you have one the chances of having another one greatly increase,(can anyone say QB Maddox!!) and being that every defense out there will be looking at our weaknesses they'll be trying to give old Trent another concussion!!!!"
Let me explain something to YOU about severe concussions. The danger with concussions is that another one occurs BEFORE the original has healed. That is when real problems occur. Look at how many boxers have problems.After a concussion has healed, the danger of another one doing severe damage is mitigated. You fail to realize that Green started EIGHTY straight games for K.C. before the conncussion.
Now about other teams trying to give Green another concussion...Look, there are rules specifically designed to punish hits to the head and they are particularly enforced when the hit is to the QB. Now how much easier would it be to go for Culpepper's knee with malicious intent? A LOT, so your point is weak.
To co-op a message once sent by T.O.'s publicist the Chiefs have $7.2 million reasons to release Trent Green.
While this may be a league concerned with today, it is even more concerned with the dolla bill.
Quit pulling our chain with this garbage Armando. Trent will be released.
So explain to me then exactly what we do when trent rolls out of the pocket on the first play from scrimmage this year takes a backside hit from a redskin and goes down with another concussion?
He's no more stable than Pep! No way we spend a pick on someone who wont even be on the damn roster in `08, nuff said.
I think Miami has a plan and that's why Trent Green isn't here and why they haven't said anything publicly about Daunte. It's not about winning this year. Their plan is to tank this year and get the 1st pick in the draft. They know there is an incredible punter available in next year's draft, and they want to use that first pick to get him. And, they won't just be drafting a punter, they'll be drafting the entire punter's family. Right, Cam?
TD Kurt
Let me ask you this then. Is there a rule against sacking the QB??? Regardless of the rules QB's take big legal hits all the time and being that our o-line is not all that solid we should'nt risk Trent taking another big hit!! There was no fine issued to the player that gave him the concussion last year , so whats to say it won't happen again!! Your point is not very strong homie!!!
Also we all know now that D.C was rushed back to play by the traitor, why shouldn't we give the guy a chance we already spent the pick for him , when we could've kept our pick and got Drew Brees for NOTHING!!! But because the traitor thought a knee injured QB was better than a QB with an arm injury we ended up with D.C now because he wasn't able to perform everyone is turning their back on the guy! For a 37 year old concussion case!!!!!
i dont get it thoe if all they need is time to for beck to be ready to play let daunte handle it for now its goin to be better off well idk maybe im wrong but i believe the dolphins could be a playoff team with daunte and green will end up hurting more then helping us i promise havent you seen the patern everytime we think something good is being done we end up screwed...
I agree with Miami's current stance. Let King Carl cry and whine all he wants, but in the end the only reason they were willing to give up a 6th was to get Green in early and to hold off Cleveland and Detroit. Now that neither of the other teams are interested, Kansas City has no leverage. Miami's called their bluff and finally is starting to make up for past lapses in judgement (ie. Switching spots with Minnesota for Carey). Making the pick conditional is a possibility, but for nothing realistically more than a five, considering he has a good year. Mueller should offer a conditional fourth if Green is the leage MVP, wins a playoff game, and makes the Pro Bowl.
There is absolutely no reason to let Beck get his feet wet now. Joey Harrington and Eric Crouch showed that getting too many lumps the first season can be disastrous. On the other hand Phillip Rivers and Carson Palmer are blossoming after learning the ropes from the sidelines. Whose career has the brighter outlook, Rivers or E. Manning? Clearly mentoring is the way to go. That's the reason Miami didn't draft a qb in the first round. History shows that a first round qb is a crap shoot at best. There's too much pressure to start them their first year. Without devoting all that money to them you can afford to give them time to grow into position. And also dont forget we invested alot in Ginn. Regardless of whether that is the right move, he'll have little chance for development with Beck behind center this year. The entire offense is very young and needs a veteran presence to pull it together, someone who can break them in for Beck to take over in the next few years. And lets not forget that the O-line is as big a question as anything this year. Why risk your 2nd round pick becoming the next David Carr when you can have someone who wont be here in two years taking the lumps instead?
Now is Green worth anymore than Culpepper? I really hate to give up on Dante so early, but you have to question whether or not he'll ever be the quarterback he once was. He'll never regain the mobility he once had, and that was one of his greatest resources. He made plays because he bought time with his legs. Without his mobility he's lost some confidence. Plus what type of is Beck going to be? Closer to Green than Culpepper I would think. Plus if you look at all the Super Bowl teams of late, they all had prototypical pocket passers. Someone who can read defenses at the line of scrimmage, make the appropriate adjustments, and exploit its weaknesses. If we agree that Beck is not the same type of quarterback that Dante is, then why would we want him learning from him? I do agree to hold on to Dante at least into training camp. By that point someone's knee/shoulder/head may explode or perhaps R. Mexico will have an opportunity to share his herpes with some fellow inmates. Until then he has little to no trade value. Perhaps he starts looking good in training camp and that will be enough to generate some interest. At the very least it keeps Green working hard and preparing.
So eventually get Green: yes, wait as long as possible for Dante to generate trade interest: yes, expect anything more than a 0.500 season: no
look we all know that KC is bluffing, we wait it out and when he's released ... pick him up. no sense rushing anything. as for C-Pep. i say make him compete for the job. if he dont like it ship him away for a pick. cam. and muller, whether you think they botched the draft or not, did a great job stockpiling picks. so if you can pick up green for nothing and let them battle it out. thats good. if the loser gets fussy trade them away and get a pick.
I am with the "get it done" crowd. Culpepper is done and will not contribute. Sign Green, trade Culpepper you end up ahead! Why make this so difficult!
I read some of these comments and it dawns on me that the majority of the people on this blog are some of the dumbest morons in cyber space.
I swear you idiots do not even watch football, just read these blogs and spit out the same damn things as all the rest of the sheep.
Trent Green is injury prone? The guy got hit by a mack truck and had a sever concussion, that was, as far as I know, the only concussion of his career. I could be wrong.
He was leveled by Rodney Harrison that delivered a dirty hit to his knee and he was lost for that season with the Rams.
Other than that, he has been not only one of the top passers in the AFC with some of the worst receivers in history, but he has proven to be very durable.
So a guy who has had one concussion and received a dirty hit that blew out his knee makes him injury prone?
Say he is a bad QB and give me evidence, Say he is not a leader and give me evidence, but do not make yourselves look stupid by saying he is injury prone.
Meanwhile, you fools are promoting Duante Culpepper, or C-Pep, or C-Peppa, or D-Pep, or whatever else stupid ass nickname you come up with for that overrated has been.
The guy made his living running on turf, not understanding defenses, and holding the ball until Randy Moss was able to break free and you think this is the answer?
The guy who STILL cannot even run 2 years removed from tearing every ligament in his knee is the guy you STILL feel should be leading our offense.
Really folks, do you just play Madden 2005 and think he is still capable of this level of play? What has possibly given you this idea?
Trent Green is the answer, bottom line. He will come in and play for a year or 2 and hand the reigns over to Beck. Miami becomes a legit contender for an 16th week 8th seed sneak in b/c he can bring them to a 9-7 record.
A 5th round pick is a freaking joke for a 2 year starter and mentor when the average span of an NFL career is less than 4 years. I wonder what it is for players selected in rounds 5 or higher?
Use your brain people, please.
And more importantly, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN!
jdiz got it right, if cam was smart he would be scheming to how the make the most out of the formidable talents of daunte instead of pininig for his sweetheart, trent, who is more ready for the old folkies home than playing qb.
AND, we do not need trent green to teach beck how to play qb, thats why we have cam cameron and terry shea.
and IMHO, i am not at all convinced beck is the "future." he seems like a lightweight to me --just do not see him becoming a super bowl qb. i don't see the toughness and cockiness he will need to do that.
if daunte cant go out and play give a chace to cleo & john.
dont waste time with green... lets the younger have possibility to play and make experience soon, now... on the field playing!!!
why not?
Does anyone know when KC would have to release Trent so they don't have to pay him?
First off, giving up a 5th round pick let alone a 6th round pick is a terrible waste of possible contributing players in the future. The moron on here that said that there are noplayers that have contributed from the 5th round in the past is just not a someone that knows anything about football. NFL Network just aired a special on players that came out of the last few rounds that are pro-bowlers and superbowl winners!
Second, Trent Green is no mentor and is the poster child for "system quarterback"! He didn't do anything before getting to KC and the reason he did well there is the system. HE is more of a primadonna then Pep, just look at what he's been doing in the media. Who has Trent mentored?? No one. Even Huard was successful in KC's system for crying out loud! Damon Huard!! All we do by getting Trent is waste a pick!! Why trade for him when he will be released. If KC keeps him, that's there funeral!
Let Daunte compete with all the other quarterbacks and see who wins out regardless of whether Trent comes here or not. Even if we pick Trent up after he gets released (and he will) he should have to compete for the starting role also.
I truely believe Cam and Mueller know what they are doing and will make this team exciting in the future. We don't need Trent!
Armando,
You may not see this since it is so deep in the comments pool here...but something that may be worth commenting on in your next article.
Last year when the Chiefs drafted Brodie Croyle, Trent Green was on Cold Pizza a few days later and they were asking him about how he mentors young guys...Trent was surprisingly cold..basically saying he doesn't believe in mentoring the rookies and that they need to learn it all for themeselves. He said something to the effect of, "if you teach them what you know then they steal your job". Looks like that is what happened anyway in KC. Nonetheless, the point is, maybe Trent Green is not the right guy to have around for John Beck. Might be something worth bringing up if you can find the old tape.
Felipe,
1. DUANTE STILL CANNOT EVEN RUN - how hard is that to comprehend?
2. I never said there were no contributing players form the 5th round, work on your reading comprehension.
3. Trent Green is a Prima Donna? Interesting. You mean a guy who loses his starting job to an injury, a journeyman, and a terrible second year player with bad knees is upset about not being able to move on with his life and he is a Prima Donna?
And to the genius who pointed out that Beck does not have the cockiness needed to win a Superbowl, would you call Peyton Manning and Tom Brady cocky?
You know who is cocky? Michael Vick, Duante Culpepper, Jake Plummer - how did that work out for these bums?
Any other lesson I need to teach anyone? Let me know.
I can't believe some of the crap I'm reading on this blog. I truly want to know how many of you actually know ANYTHING ABOUT FOOTBALL. Because most of you are acting like you just bought Madden '07 and that makes you an expert. Let's look at the facts.
Trent Green is a Pro Bowl QB and had three straight 4,000 yard seasons with a lack of talented "receivers". But during that time, he had arguably two of the best running backs in the league (Priest Holmes before his injury and Larry Johnson), not to mention, one of the top TE's in the NFL in Tony Gonzalez. So, yes, he didn't have many true "receivers" but those three made a good chunk of the big receptions in KC. And yes, Green did suffer a severe concussion last year and has had a leg injury on a late hit, but we have to remember, once you have one concussion, your head never fully recovers and you become more & more prone to them with each hit you take. Could Green be a good QB still? Sure. But with that said, why is no one else offering KC anything for him. There are a few other teams that have questionable QB situations (just because they have a "starter" doesn't mean he is the best option). Obviously, they are not sold on spending a draft pick to get a 37-year-old "bandaid" QB who is on his last leg in today's NFL.
On the other side of things, let's look at Daunte Culpepper. He suffered a devestating knee injury and is two years removed from playing in the NFL. Yes, he didn't succeed too well in Minnesota without Randy Moss. But he only had half a season to get accustomed to not having Moss there. That's not enough time to get used to playing without arguably your best WR. And then, Satan decides to bring Culpepper back WAY TOO EARLY, just because he was not feeling pain for a month and knew his legacy was tied to the success of Culpepper (Satan just wanted an attempt to show everyone he was not as big of an idiot as we thought he was). But, prior to his injury, Culpepper too was a Pro Bowl QB. You can make the same argument that Culpepper is also now prone to more knee problems because of the severity of this last one & that would be a legitimate argument to make.
With that said, here is my take about the situation with Miami:
- DON'T TRADE OR RELEASE DAUNTE!! At least not until you see what he can do for this team when 100% healthy (which he claims he will be by the minicamps in June)
- DON'T TRADE FOR TRENT GREEN!! KC is NOT going to keep his $7.2 million on the books for him to serve as a veteran backup. It just doesn't make much financial sense. They are only saying this because it is their LAST ONCE OF LEVERAGE against Miami. They will probably release Green sometime after June 1, so they don't take as large a cap hit this season. So, wait until they do so & then sign him (we already know he wants to be in Miami & we already have a contract in place).
- SHOULD WE GET TRENT GREEN, KEEP CULPEPPER!! Let's put it this way. Releasing Culpepper (he has no trade value b/c of how long it has been since he played an NFL game at 100%) will only save you $1.5 million on this years cap number, so why not just keep him & have an open QB competition. Let the 3 veterans (Green, Culpepper & Lemon) vie for playing time, while Beck learns from ALL THREE!! He learns the aspects of pocket passing from Green, the aspects of a mobile QB from Culpepper & gets Lemon's two cents. That's the best option available for this team.
I think this may have more to do with Mueller and Peterson having a GM duel than anything else. I got the impression early on that Peterson did not respect Mueller and that pissed Randy off.
The bottom line is Mueller doesn't have to do anything. There is no way KC is going to pay Green $7.2 million to ride the pine. Mueller knows it and so does Peterson. I believe Peterson wanted a draft pick this year and thought he could bluff Mueller into giving up as much as a second rounder. Randy didn't bite and Peterson is not happy about it.
Mueller has to build his reputation and he doesn't want to be thought of as a guy who can be tricked into a foolish move. Peterson on the other hand already has a reputation for being a tough negotiator.
Mueller set his price, a sixth rounder. Peterson wants more... What we're looking at is a war of wills. In my opinion Mueller is holding all the cards. Peterson either takes the sixth or we get Green outright, albeit a month later than we would have liked.
As for the Culpepper debate. They will let him compete. Why not? There is nothing to lose by letting him in on the reindeer games. If he can show he has some value then you can get a higher pick if you do eventually let him go.
right Luke!
i totally agree!!!
Trent Green VS Dante Culpepper...Yes, both have been to the Pro Bowl. Yes they both have had serious injuries. Yes, their are viscios HITS landed on QB's by the DL's and LB's. It also boils down to which one has more brains when it comes to knowing and understanding an offensive schematic or being able to read a defensive schematic from the line? Cameron, has a proven offensive schmatic that he has used to develop QB's...why should he change his offensive scheme to accomadate 1 player!?!?!? Culpepper, might have a nice arm, but he's to dumb, to scared, and not agile and mobile as he once was to where he could run around in the back field waiting for a receiver to get open. When i say hes scared the proof is in the numbers...21 SACKS in 4games...because he couldn't move around and he held the damm ball to long.
Here's another thing to consider which no one else has seemed to put out there for thought...has anyone ever considered the fact that the OFFENSIVE LINE DOESNT LIKE CULPEPPER? Lets compare shall were...NFL Season 06 WKs 1-4: Culpepper 21 Sacks ; WKS 5-15 Harrington 15 Sacks. If you look at it, it sure seemed like the offensive line didnt have any respect for culpepper by allowing him to be gotten to 21x's in 4wks. And the 15 sacks that Harrington took...well, think bout it the opposing teams had to fight for everyone of them...why? Because i think Harrington had a better Repertoire with the Offensive Line then Culpepper did.
As for Saban being the primary fall guy for culpeppers being rushed back to active playing...Well, that blame can be divided...Yes Saban probably put some pressure on Culpepper to come back, but YET CULPEPPER FREELY ADMITS that he cut his REHAB SHORT and rushed himself back so he could be active for the teams 3 Mini-Camps and also for Training Camp. Culpepper claims to know his Knee and body..which im sure he does, but he should have spoken up and said "Coach Saban, i know im getting better, but I dont think my knee is ready yet." So as i said both can be blamed for his returning to soon, thou Dante's more at fault then saban b/c hes the one that cut his rehab short and rush back so he can participate in MiniCamp.
Yes, its true that once you suffer a Concussion, its always easier to get another one a next time around. Trent Green suffered a SEVERE Concus las season, but i think he'd be better for MIAMI now then Dante is especially w/Camerons offensive schematic.
Either make the deal w/ KC with a conditional D.Pick or wait it out to see what happens, but either way, i think Green will end up in Miami one way or another and that Culpepper has seen his final days in the Aqua, Orange, and White.
Wow, I have never seen as much ignorance in a set of comments as I did in D.Turner's statements:
"has anyone ever considered the fact that the OFFENSIVE LINE DOESNT LIKE CULPEPPER? Lets compare shall were...NFL Season 06 WKs 1-4: Culpepper 21 Sacks ; WKS 5-15 Harrington 15 Sacks. If you look at it, it sure seemed like the offensive line didnt have any respect for culpepper by allowing him to be gotten to 21x's in 4wks."
That's the most stupid comment I have ever seen. First off, Culpepper was not as able to avoid the rush as Harrington because he was not completely healed from that knee injury. Second, most teams that have, for all intensive purposes, a "new" offensive line take a few games before the line is able to work together. So, to say that the line doesn't respect Culpepper because they let him get sacked 21 times in 4 games, while Harrington only was sacked 15 in the remainder of the season is absolutely false.
Unless you can find me video evidence showing EVERY OL WHOSE MAN BEAT THEM FOR A SHOT ON CULPEPPER JUST LET HIS MAN BY WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO BLOCK HIM, then shut your mouth!!!!
cmon joey throw everywhere sometimes too soon, daunte dont, he waits too long! this is why he was saked most.
I think a 6th rounder is more than fair. He is one solid hit away from ending his career, and the Phin's o-line is still a, uh hum, I'll be nice, a work in progress. I say give the Chiefs an ultimatum. 6th rounder now or we forever withdraw our offer. Start planning to not have him and pick him up if (ok, when) he is released. It seems Cam isn't giving C-Pepp a shot, but I think it would be much wiser to keep him, even if don't want him and try to rehab his knee to get value for him in a trade, though I still think he may be able to come back and be a good QB in this league. Peace Out.
I think at this point the fins are doing what they are suppesed to do, its already more than fair to give up a 6th round choice for Trent, I really think he can help us win some games this year but KC is just waiting for Miami to make a mistake to offer more, or they release him accept what they get that is the bottom line unless they really intend to keep him.
I do follow most opinion out there that Trent is much better role model for John, but lets not blink, you can see that Herm is already getting frustrated with the same questions about Trent´s future, keep it upo press.
Daunte Culpepper sucks!!!! Trent Green is who the Dolphins need. Trent Green can make the Dolphins a winner, unlike that selfish idiot Daunte! O'Doyle RULES!!!
No to a 5th! Not that there's any significant difference between a 5th and a 6th. But it sets a precedent. The league has to know that this isn't Bumstead or Satan's team anymore. Besides, Peterson needs to have his nose ground in the dirt.
trent green sucks donkey nuts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!stop gap for a fifth?screw that...if we can play d like last season all we gotta do is not trip over our own feet ala cpepp and we win more games....u people think you can predict everything that's gonna happen next year...just trust the experts and go back to cooking the steak i ordered....strategy and plat calling have more to do wit football than any other sport...who cares who plays where...just make sure he executes!!!!beck should play !
We should absolutely not give up more than a 6th rounder for a 1-2 year player. I think Trent Green would be a great pickup, he truly has been underrated for most of his career, but there is no reason to cave. Worst case scenario you get him right before camp without giving up a thing. He's a pro and he can be ready. The other fact is that the longer we wait, the more we learn about the status of Culpepper. I do believe he's a goner, but who knows? Maybe he comes back healthier than expected.
I am not too sure about what I think about us getting Green.... but one thing became appaerent in reading this thread.
Our entire offense might benefit from one year of seeing how things should go. Beck needs to develop and play - but Lorenzo and Ginn could learn a lot their first year by playing with a guy who makes the system work.
The Dolphins have to stop trading away draft picks for quarterbacks. Just wait until Trent Green is released.
I agree, why give KC a draft pick for someone they don't even want. It make no sense at all. We had a pretty good draft for this year for the first time in YEARS! Why, because we had almost all our draft picks. THe one pick we did not have, 5th rd, was used on who...Joey Harrington! We have given un way to much over the past 2 or 3 years for QBs who were supposed to be the cure and they were not. Lets stay the course and continue stock piling picks and build the team the right way. Forget about Green, unless KC lets him go, which they will.
I don't understand why we would give up anything for Trent Green just so we can have a shot at going 9-7. The goal is the Superbowl, not to almost make the playoffs or lose in the first round of the playoffs. I'd rather go 6-10 one more season, train the young players (and QB) so that we can be better int he future, and get better draft picks for one more season. If Trent Green gets us 3-4 more wins this season, and then his usefulness is done, then all we've done is drop about 8 picks in next years draft for really no payoff. He's supposed to be a mentor for Beck? Isn't that what coaches are for? If we're out of contention bby week 12 (likely), then won't Beck get to play earlier and learn faster in this way? The goal is to make the Dolphins a superbowl contender, not to make them average or slightly better than average next year.
This year is lost anyway. We have a new offense and too many rookies that will be counted on to become, but not already be, our foundation. Starting the season we have no prove QB, O-Line, Tight End, 3rd WR (or 2nd, or 1st), kick returner, or kicker. If Trent Green is fabulous, and covers up all of these deficiencies, are we going to challenge for the AFC title? MNo. If he stinks, and we go 6-10 with him, was he worth a draft pick? No. There is no upside here.
Give up the fifth round choice for Trent Green. The chances of a rookie fifth rounder making an impact immediatly if at all in his career is rare. Culpepper is and has been overrated since signing the monster deal he got in Minnesota. Roll the dice not on his talent but the fact he will stay healthy is worth the gamble.
Someone said that Green would be a great influence on Beck.......
Green has admitted that he wants to show up to KC's camp wearing a Dolphins helmet.....how much more classless can he get?
This is a 37-year-old child, and you want him tutoring Beck?
Miami doesn't need this headache; no 5th, no 6th....no Green period!
Let's get one thing even clearer. Trent Green has yet to win the big one. So what makes everyone so sure Trent can do anything here. We will be his 5th team in 14 years. That speaks volumes to me.
KC was ready to part with a 6th round pick. Then the Atlanta deal happened and Carl Peterson now wants more for a QB that they asked to take a pay cut and gave permission to find a deal.
All you folks who think you know Daunte and the fact that he will not be a mentor to beck know more than most. I am for bringing Green in and having him compete with Culpepper for the job. The winner stays and the loser get's traded or cut.
But I certainly at this point to agree with a 5th round pick for Green, but it looks like Miami may be leaning that way in regards to performance barriers that need to be reached.
IF KC wants to swallow the 7.2 mill that they will owe Trent and the 9 mill that he will count against there salary cap, let them.
I say give up a #5 for Green and dump Pep he is washed up. Green can play for a year while Beck learns and is ready to take over. It makes sense, if Beck is the future. I hope he is!
Hey phin fans, get it through your thick heads, Peterson is not going to accept a 6th round pick and he will keep Trent just because he can. Even Green is beginning to realize this. "I'm 90% percent sure I will be a Dolphin this year". And for all you idiots who think Green is a hack, do a little research before opening your holes, this guy has had over a 90 quarterback rating the last 4 out the 5 seasons. Yes he had a 74 last year but he came back before he should have. (just like dc) And I do believe DC had above a 90 2 out of the last 5 seasons!! I hope and hope you do keep DC so you can go crazy watching him helplessly try to run an offense that is way above his "wonderlic" abilities!!!
Get Dan Marino or Bob Griese to mentor the kid if we don't get Green. But we should not give up anything more than a 6th for a 37 Y.O. conucussed QB.
Hey Anonymous (one of many on here so I'm not sure who you are)...you said..."Please take a look at the last 10+ years worth of drafts and point out how many impact players came in the 5th round."
Ok, so I need to work on my reading comprehension? thanks Teach! Really?!
You made the comment, so I responded by telling you there were contributing players and quite a few(just go to espn.com and click on any roster and see what round most NFL starters were picked in), so your comment was inaccurate.
Oh, Daunte CAN run and he has been running. He is working at getting his speed/explosiveness back. I'm not saying he's 100% but he's well on his way. He deserves a chance to show what he can do in the next minicamp. So does Cleo and John Beck. Maybe you should attend a minicamp before you make statements like that.
Also, are you TRENT GREEN? Sounds like you might be after the "baby-crying" #3 statement! What is up with that man? Are you Trent Green's biggest fan? Is there a shrine in your house for this guy? Come on dude?! It is clear that Trent Green isn't worth a 4th, 5th or a 6th round pick. If he was, then he would be in camp already!
We pick the guy up when he is released and that's it. He fights for the starting job like all the other QB's.
You haven't taught anyone any lessons buddy. The only lesson you need is a football lesson!
oh and be a man and use your name so we all know who's making these rediculous statements!
I've read through the posts and I see one person is being sensible. The Dolphins should make it a conditional draft pick for Green. If he never becomes the starter this year or gets hurt early then its only a 6th rounder. He'll still be available to tutor Beck. If he becomes the starter for atleast 8 games it becomes a 5th rounder. If he is the starter for that many games and the Dolphins make the playoffs it becomes a 4th rounder. That way both teams are protected by his on field production.
What do 5th rounders contribute? How about Zach Thomas, he's a 5th rounder. With that logic how many 1st and 2nd rounders have fizzeled out. Anybody remember Harrington. If you think he (Green) is what we need you don't wait you get him into camp to play or teach or whatever but you get him in. Obviously Cam and Mueller aren't that convinced he can turn this around. Cam is only concerned with "the players currently on my roster"
From his news conferences at the minis he is very high currently on Lemon and his ability toadjust in practice for Cam and make changes upon request. They will wait KC out I think and maybe even go Plummer or Wallace or maybe Orton if they do bring in someone else besides PEP, Cleo, Beck.
Felipe,
It is clear you know even less about business than you do about football.
If Trent Green has said he will ONLY play for Miami, if Trent Green already worked out a contract with Miami, and if the Chiefs have made it chrystal clear he will not be playing for them, why would the Dolphins over-pay?
Should we throw in that Green knows the offense, is in playing shape and is known as a very smart QB? Nah, why add logic right?
The Chiefs will not throw away 7.2 million when they have PLENTY of holes to fill just to prove a point
So Trent Green isn't worth a 5th or a 6th round pick even though that is what our management offered? Brilliant
Putting you in your place is starting to bore me, just go back to fluffing "C-Pep" and get back to me when you have a clue.
Btw - Don't you think it is telling that Coach Cameron has not said a word about Culpepper being his guy, don't you think if he thought he would be ready and was a viable option at QB, he would speak a little more highly about him. Afterall... he is on the current roster right?
Much Love,
Your Daddy
I think there are two things that a lot of people are overlooking:
1. Trent Green, at 37, is no guarantee to be the answer to Miami's QB problems, even in the short term (remember, even at the end of last season he was playing very poorly, and KC is looking to jettison him even though they play in one of the toughest divisions in football).
2. If Cam Cameron and Terry Shea are the "QB Gurus" that they claim to be, they ought to be able to fix whatever is wrong with Daunte Culpepper's mechanics (assuming his knee will be fully healed).
I watched the team's mini-camp a few weeks ago, and when you see all of the Dolphins' quarterbacks next to each other, one thing becomes apparent: only one really looks the way you'd want your NFL quarterback to look, and that's Culpepper. He's got the size. He's got the arm. He's got the experience. He's also been set up to fail.
The Dolphins knew they were getting an injured QB when they traded for him, but instead of letting him heal properly, they rushed him back. The results are nothing less than what should have been expected.
Now, as he (theoretically) approaches full health, Miami would be smart to let him compete for the job. Quarterbacks with his talent are hard to find.
Sure, he may not be as mobile as he used to be. But almost every quarterback that has come into the NFL in the "highly mobile" mold in the last 10 years has gradually become a pocket passer on their way to becoming successful at the position (McNabb, McNair, Plummer, Favre, etc). Running quarterbacks don't win championships; passing quarterbacks do.
After all, if you put Culpepper and Green next to each other, what separates them? Green certainly isn't any more mobile than Culpepper is. Green also has a weaker arm, and is coming off his own serious injury (concussion). If he struggles in his first two games in Miami, the Fins will be right back to square one, wondering how they are going to solve their quarterback dilemna.
"Patience" seems to be a four-letter word in professional sports these days. Everyone wants the quick fix. But the reality is that the Dolphins, although capable of being a wild-card team with a few improvements here and there, are not capable of beating Indianapolis, New England, or San Diego in the playoffs in 2007 (or Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore, for that matter). This team's real window of opportunity may be 2-3 years away, and we shouldn't compromise that with a lot of short term decision-making. Yes, Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas will likely be gone by then, but that's life in the NFL; you have to continuously replace people, and any championship run by the Dolphins is going to come after Cameron and Mueller get a few drafts under their belts.
If Culpepper can win the job, let him. A healthy Culpepper is the best bet this team has to win in the short term, and, if not, Beck will have his chance to be the answer down the road.
To give up a fifth or sixth round pick for a older QB (Green) is doing the Culpepper thing again. If this QB were a few more years younger, with the capability of Green, I'd say yes. Look toward today and the future is our game plan I thought. Not just try for an instant win like Saban. He laid all his eggs in one basket (Culpepper) and it blew up in our faces.
I want a winner... I am tired of the jokes and feeling let down because we went for the quick fix every year. Then when all goes to hell the finger pointing goes on about whose fault it is. It is nearly impossible to build for the quick win and do it. Unless we're given the opportunity like Carolina and Jacksonville had when putting these two teams together. Which will never happen because we are an existing Pro team.
I like most of the picks, but to take a QB for our draft position better bring a higher name. I would see who else is available, and maybe take a chance with him. Let Cleo QB while training the one we pick up, even though he was not our first choice. If he has talent, and anyone playing college ball has some kind of talent, the coaching staff should be able to bring it out of him, otherwise these men should not be coaching.
What has the world come to? Why are we even discussing this madness? Why even give up a decent grilled chicken sandwich for a 37-year old football player at ANY position? You media types just want something to write about. I'll take Cleo Lemon any day of the year over Green, and I'll certainly take our new quarterback over Green. It isn't about who is exactly better today, but in case you've been getting too much sun, we have an awesome defense, Ricky is gone (finally!), and our defense will be even more crushing this year. Start now with the future - with a good offensive line - and put the right guy in for the job. Some critics say we Miami fans can't get over Marino... they are right. We aren't going to settle for a 37-year old ready-to-retire quarterback from out-of-state. If we are going to be that "in the now", we might as well talk Dan himself out of doing HBO and have HIM throw a few 40-year old zingers. At least we'll have more fun and we'll be keeping it real in Miami instead of importing some retired talent elsewhere. Save your hard-earned bucks, Wayne.
Wayne if you are reading this comment it was you who wanted a direction on who would be a better QB for our Dolphins Right! Well you let him get away.I would have taken CARR but now we all have to pay for your stupid ORG. that didn't see another Marino in your hands. Think about it. We had our chance . But you rather go with this color guy GREEN .WHY
When Atlanta pays Trent Green 7.2 million and hands over that 4th rounder, we will be left with 3 of the worst qb's in football.
Daunte has 1 winning season in 7 years, averages 1 fumble and 1 int per game and get's sacked 3 times per game. Lifetime loss percentage is 53%. That's right, with the best receivers in the business, he loses more than he wins.
Lemmons sucked for us and was a 4th stringer last year headed to the arena league before idiot saban picked him up for a 5th round draft pick, no less.
The pakistani is on his way back to the homeland to throw rocks at people as they collect the American money handouts.
Randy Mueller is about to screw the team royally with his ego as he is not bringing Cam the man with the brain. In case you hadn't noticed, we need Green now!
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Anonymous:
Boy, you really like to dig a hole for yourself don't you?
First, as the CEO of a successful profitable medical software company, I think I know a little about business. Actually, since I built the company myself, I think I know quite a bit. But I digress.
So, since you opened up this can of worms, there is a term used in business: Valuation
Basically, if the Dolphins were to give up a 4th round pick for a QB that is on his last legs (hello 37 yrs old and damaged goods) they would be giving up more for Green then they need to. If they give up a conditional 6th rounder for the guy, I can live with that. He's not worth a 4th round pick! His value maybe is a 6th round pick. You don't buy a damaged product at full price; you get it at a significant discount!
Logic?? To me it’s more logical to pay what something is worth and not overpay. Hey are you having credit problems? Did you pay too much for your house? It’s clear you have no idea what business is all about. NFL Football is a business and that’s why Green isn't here yet. Miami knows his value and the Chiefs keep trying to inflate it!
You’ve also contradicted yourself by saying: “If Trent Green has said he will ONLY play for Miami, if Trent Green already worked out a contract with Miami, and if the Chiefs have made it chrystal(maybe you should use spell check or something...this is a girls name! Is this your name?) clear he will not be playing for them, why would the Dolphins over-pay?” EXACTLY!!! Why would they overpay? They shouldn’t. All the cards have been played and KC just needs to lay them down!
I’m not fluffing C-PEP either. Actually my stance is that all the QB’s get a fair chance to earn the job and no one should have it handed to them, especially not a 37 year old coming off a serious injury!
Oh yeah, Coach Cam hasn’t said anything about any of the QB’s, not just Culpepper. He’s always been that way. He wants to see what all of them can do and the best guy gets the call. He hasn’t committed to any of them, not even Green as the starter. So what does that mean? He is looking for another QB?! Come on man!
Listen, if you’re gonna talk a bunch of garbage…at least make some sense!
Love ya,
Your Future Boss
“Step in to my office…..’cause you’re FIRED!”
In regards to Culpepper, at this point, I'm just sick of hearing "when I'm healthy", "I feel great", "my knee is making good progress", "it's getting stronger everyday." I'm getting tired of words, Culpepper's word is becoming more and more useless by the day. Culpepper has talked long enough, it's time to start showing something. No more talking to the press, no more e-mails to the media, it's now PUT UP OR SHUT UP TIME.
If I'm Daunte Culpepper I would be doing the following things.
1) Give your best effort everyday in your rehab, no matter how simple of a task it may be, give it your best each and everyday.
2) Get into the facility early to watch film and study. I'm pretty sure Coach Shea and Coach Cameron will be there when you arrive. Ask questions, lots of them. Oh, and before you leave the facility stay a little later for some more film studying. Pay close attention to what plays work best against different defenses. Some plays that work well against the 3-4 may not work against a Tampa 2.
3) Read that new playbook cover to cover. Then read it again. After that, go back and highlight the parts that you had the most trouble with and talk to Coach Shea and Coach Cameron and keep asking questions until those "troublesome plays" make sense. Once again, you're learning a new offense, and you if you have any aspirations of being the Dolphins starting quarterback, you better know every wrinkle and every nuance of that offense.
4) Be a leader, and a positive influence. Over the past few years, your attitude has come into question. What better way to silence your critics by showing rookies how to do things the right way. If you still truly believe that you're still the leader of the offense, the best way to still show it is by shadowing Coach Cameron and Coach Shea. When the offense is out on the field, make sure your right next to those two men, and after the play is over talk about what you saw, talk about how you would've handled the situation.
Granted, these are things that fans will never see. However, if Culpepper is serious about wanting to get back to 2004 form, these are things he should be doing.
For all you Brady Quinn Fans. SI Reports
"While on the third team, Edwards worked with rookie quarterback Brady Quinn, who continued to display inaccuracy during the Browns' voluntary practices."
Hey bossman, thanks for the laugh! That last line... "Step into my office... Cause you're FIRED!" Got a good belly laugh out of me!
Felipe - I agree with your football take, but you sound like a stuck up corporate pussy. And for someone who tells others to spell check, you make a lot of grammatical errors including one in that sentence: 'girls name' should be 'girl's name'.
felipe needs to go back to his native country. Culpepper sucks and Green rules. Green came back a few games after a major concussion and was awesome the year before. Fumblepepper always sucked, including the year of the injury. 6 td's, 12 int's, 5 fumbles and 20 plus sacks. It's obvious that Green is truly better and more consistent. When judging a qb, you look at consistency, not one year. Throughout the years, Green has played better and more consistenly. Fumblepepper was a one year wonder, whereas Green has been a lot more solid player, year in and year out.
At this point, it makes no sense to make a trade for Green. If they thought he could take this to the playoffs, they would have given a 4th by now. This team is at least a year away from competing for a playoff spot. Just let Cleo Lemon run the team, or maybe get lucky and Daunte becomes healthy. Let Beck learn the system, and hope for the best in 2008. Sorry JT and Zach, but you will have to suffer another looong year.
Anonymous 1: There's no need to name call unless you're willing to do this in person?! But I'm glad you agree with my football take.
Anonymous 2: This is my native country unless you are referring to the country my parents were from which is Colombia? In that case then you should go back to your families native country!
Back to football. Anyone hearing anything else regarding Trent Green? Its been pretty quiet the last few days which makes me think something is about to happen.
I think Beck is going to be pretty good. He's made a good impression on the team and coaches so far. He looked good in the first minicamp. Its still too soon to tell if he's going to really do great things.
Any comments on Beck? I think the Culpepper and Green situation has been talked to death already so I'm done there. Thanks to anonymous for some entertaining back and forth. It's all good and just smack, so I hope its not personal.
One quick comment on Green and done, cam may be curious why The Great Green Hope has been psushed off every other team he's been on by QBs with better arms which is happeing to him again in KC
I agree with Felipe that you don't inflate the agreed on price.
I think there is a controlled silence trying to focus more on the recent signings and position moves by existing players i.e. moving Chamnbers back into the slot.
There is also talk that CPep will do more inthe next mini and do regular workouts in regular camp.
Lemon is high on Camradar currently for his arm strength and adaptability in the mini camps
And has also stated on The Afternoon Blitz with Adam Shein and Solomon Wilcox that Beck is a sponge when it comes to learning his system and knowing how defenses will react to certain formations and motions and that his arm strength and accuracy have been unmatched in the minis
While Fifth rounders only translate into players about 20% of the time. There is NO REASON for Miami to pay this price for a QB that will be on the market by July and wants to play for the Dolphins anyway.
The DUMB thing that MIami general management did was tip the hand that they wanted him and would pay a price.
This month, Miami shoould prepare for either Culpepper, Lemon to be the opening day starter wiht Beck as the backup. And then welcome Trent Green in at Training Camp, when he is no doubt available for Free as the Chiefs have to cut him.
The Fins could have had Green for a 6th round pick and trading places with KC's 3rd round pick moving down 11 spaces (see Judge NFL.com) But instead Mueller wants to play patty cake...Ok now the Falcons need a QB and they dont care about patty cake...they care about their team...to bad Mueller doesnt.
I THINK THE SHOULD MAKE THE 6TH ROUND PIC CONDITIONAL. A 5TH ROUNDER IF HE PLAYS X-AMOUNT OF TIMES OR A 4TH IF HE TAKES THE TEAM TO THE PLAYOFFS. KANSAS CITY'S GRIPE IS THAT TRENT GREEN IS A PRO BOWL QB SO LET'S PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. HE IS SO GOOD THEN HE CAN TAKE US TO THE PLAYOFF AND I THINK A 4TH PIC IS WORTH IF HE ACTUALLY DOES THAT. OPINIONS?
Give me a break!!!!!
Screw Kansas City. Let them keep four QB's. Let them go into the season paying a backup $7 million.
Let them continue to build distrust amongst players like Larry Johnson, by trashing Trent Green the way they are.
I say take all trade offers off the table and force them to swallow the mess they've created.
I don't think the Fins are a playoff team with Green, so why waste a draft pick for one or two extra wins in a playoff less season?
To answer the “Mortgage the future” question, for a team like Miami, NO.
Miami has too many holes to fill. Know matter what a 4th or 5th rounder may or may not become. Only teams competing for championships can afford to “Mortgage the future” for the sake of “Now”.
With that said giving up a 5th or 6th round pick for a vet who can make tangible and intangible contributions, even if for only one or two years, is hardly mortgaging the future.
Funny how the Miami Herald ran a story today about Cam Cameron getting along with the community. What a bunch of crap! Not one person I know of has forgiven this clown for ignoring Brady Quinn. Dear Herald Staff, the community still HATES Cam's guts. Nice try trying to make amends with Scam Cameron.
"Scam" Cameron. Now that is pretty funny, since he pulled a scam on us by choosing Ted Ginn. (and then he tried to justify it by saying that he knows Ted's dad is a good guy.) Who cares about a player's family!!?? Nobody except Scam Cameron.
To answer the more specific question, what should Miami give up for Green?
Allow me to indulge a bit.
According to Green’s agent the 7.2 mill is an “Opening Day” roster bonus, meaning Green would have to be on the final 53 man roster to get it. It seems KC has more leverage than anyone in this discussion knew. They can keep Green right up to the final cut without having to pay the 7.2 mill bonus.
“Camuller” has known all along the terms of Green’s KC contract. If "Camuller" had already decided to bring in Green and give him the #1 job, while grooming Beck for a few years, giving up an 08 # 5 would not be unreasonable. I believe “Camuller” would even pull the trigger on a trade for the 08 # 4. Having the player your set on as your # 1 QB, sooner rather than later, is worth more than the difference between a # 4 and 5 pick. Obviously the Miami brain trust has not settled on Green as the # 1.
I believe the reason “Camuller” wants Green in camp, but may not want to give more than the 08 # 6 for him, is the same reason KC may take Green to their camp.
Green gives both Miami and KC the very best 3 player competition possible for their QB jobs.
It’s a safe bet C-pep will be 100% ready, if not by the next mini-camp, certainly by training camp. With Lemon re-signed, interestingly to only a one year contract, you bring in Green a master of the offensive system Miami is going to run.
What better player to measure C-Pep’s grasp of or Lemon’s readiness to run the system.
You keep the best two of the group. Let the players decide it on the field.
Is having Green in Miami’s camp worth the 08 # 6? Yes. Is he worth the 08 # 5? ..... If he starts and takes 80% of the snaps during the season, yes. There’s no way I would give the 08 # 4. The 08 # 4 has a greater chance of still being on the team in three years than Green’s zero chance of still being a player in three years.
There you have it Mando….what do you think.
I say start Beck from day 1. Stop crying about Quinn. He is all hype. Get off the guy's dick already.
im all for bringing in green but dont see any reason to pay more then we have too. its not even a question of is he worth it or not. its about a new administration setting a tone with the rest of the nfl. i want him here but dont want us to look like pushovers with the rest of the leauge. unfortunatly weve been pushed into a postion of nonflexiability and kc has themselves to blame. they tried to bully us and i hope our new admin stands strong. say what you want about cam and randy but they know what they want and are making the rules for everyone else to follow. they are leading this team. i hope they are leading us to a prosperous future, but only time will tell us that.
Seriously, I have to laugh because some of you guys are such brain dead morons it is incredible!
Seriously, you are saying Trent Green is injured but Culpepper is our saving grace? PLEASE! This is the same guy who couldn't even get off a stationary bike a month ago.
There are a few individuals with some great comments and then the rest is "We should have drafted Quinn, he's our God". Seriously its time to move along and get over it. Beck is our future, like it or not. Cameron is doing a fantastic job in my opinion and I really think we are going in the right direction.
I can't wait to see all you morons in a year from now gasping at how Ginn is just a machine and Beck looks sooo good. Then there will be lot of words eaten and I am for one looking forward. Its amazing how little some know of the sport. You should stick to Cricket.
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