Do we call him New Mexico or Ron Mexico Jr.?
Maybe we shouldn't call him anything because, with all due respect to the Michael Vick experience, it's a waste of time to bring Marcus Vick to minicamp.
You've all heard about the report that the Dolphins are bringing Vick's less talented and much more trouble-prone little bro to this weekend's minicamp. Big mistake.
I challenge any of you to name one former trouble-maker or druggie who simply turned things around and became a star for the Miami Dolphins. Outside of Irving Fryar, who turned into a productive player around the time he got born again, I cannot recall even one player who chased away the demons effectively enough to be productive on Sunday.
On the other hand, I can recall off the top of my head a bunch of guys who were trouble when the Dolphins gambled on them, and continued to be trouble afterward.
Chuck Muncie in the 1980s? He was traded to Miami and when he took his urinalysis, white powder came out.
Tony Collins back in 1990 didn't work out. Clayton Holmes, he of three failed drug tests with the Cowboys, failed another drug test before he got out of training camp his only year in Miami.
Demetrius Underwood came with emotional baggage and when that luggage landed in Miami, it detonated as Underwood tried to commit suicide during a bye weekend.
Cecil Collins came to Miami with a prison record and rewarded Jimmy Johnson's confidence in him by sneaking into some lady's apartment -- while her husband was home. So, of course, he rectified the situation by jumping out the window -- never mind he had missed a game or practice or something because of a sprained ankle.
The Diesel, by the way, is still serving a 15-year sentence for that parole violation.
LaCurtis Jones came to Miami in the 1996 draft with a reputation for violence, which seem OK if he channeled it strictly to the field. But when he got cut, he showed up at training camp with a gun. True story.
Lawrence Phillips was a thug at Nebraska, was a thug in St. Louis and when the Dolphins signed him, guess what? He was a thug in Miami.
Gene Atkins once punched out a teammate in New Orleans then came to Miami and argued with Louis Oliver and grabbed Tom Olivadotti on the sidelines.
Ricky Williams came to Miami with a reputation for being unpredictable and eccentric and guess what ... he's been unpredictable and eccentric with the Dolphins.
I can go on and on: Larry Webster (drugs) got suspended; Shane Burton (alcohol) got arrested for DUI; Tim McKyer (bad reputation) lasted only one year; Bobby Humphry (drugs) got shot; Tyrone Wheatley (I don't even remember his major malfunction when he came to Miami) got cut.
Are you getting the drift that there is a reason these guys get traded or don't get drafted? Are you getting the drift that when the Dolphins add these guys to the roster, they are inheriting someone else's headache?
Vick, according to three sources, was completely off the draft board of at least 21 NFL teams from my count. They obviously knew something about the kid that overshadowed his good arm and 4.47 speed.
He got suspended in 2004 and was finally kicked off the Virginia Tech team after last season -- even after his older brother had taken him in and tried to set him on the right direction.
So now he comes to the Dolphins for a tryout and the team will say it hasn't invested anything in the guy and it doesn't hurt to give the guy a chance because, what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
But that's very shortsighted. Every snap he takes in this minicamp, is one less snap a more worthwhile player doesn't get. Every moment he spends with a coach, is one less moment that coach is investing on a player that isn't as likely to get into trouble down the road.
The sad thing is sometimes guys like Mexico Jr. look like they've gotten their act together, make you start trusting that everything is fine and then ... poof, the air goes out of the good-guy balloon.
They revert to their old ways and it always happens at the wrong time. Bobby Humphrey was great for the Dolphins for a while that 1992 season and then when Miami got to the AFC title game against Buffalo, he mysteriously shows up 30 minutes before the game and lays a huge egg that day.
Collins wasn't much of an investment and J.J. didn't expect much from him until he actually worked his way into the starting lineup and then when the team started to count on him ... he reverted to his old ways.
At the end of the day it simply is not worth it, people. These players come wrapped in much talent and potential but tear open the attractive exterior and you get a package full of unreliability.
Nick Saban should know that because he's been victimized by unreliable players as surely as Don Shula and J.J. and Dave Wannstedt were.
He might not agree, but the proof is right there on Miami's 2006 depth chart -- the one that doesn't include Ricky Williams at running back.
You've all heard about the report that the Dolphins are bringing Vick's less talented and much more trouble-prone little bro to this weekend's minicamp. Big mistake.
I challenge any of you to name one former trouble-maker or druggie who simply turned things around and became a star for the Miami Dolphins. Outside of Irving Fryar, who turned into a productive player around the time he got born again, I cannot recall even one player who chased away the demons effectively enough to be productive on Sunday.
On the other hand, I can recall off the top of my head a bunch of guys who were trouble when the Dolphins gambled on them, and continued to be trouble afterward.
Chuck Muncie in the 1980s? He was traded to Miami and when he took his urinalysis, white powder came out.
Tony Collins back in 1990 didn't work out. Clayton Holmes, he of three failed drug tests with the Cowboys, failed another drug test before he got out of training camp his only year in Miami.
Demetrius Underwood came with emotional baggage and when that luggage landed in Miami, it detonated as Underwood tried to commit suicide during a bye weekend.
Cecil Collins came to Miami with a prison record and rewarded Jimmy Johnson's confidence in him by sneaking into some lady's apartment -- while her husband was home. So, of course, he rectified the situation by jumping out the window -- never mind he had missed a game or practice or something because of a sprained ankle.
The Diesel, by the way, is still serving a 15-year sentence for that parole violation.
LaCurtis Jones came to Miami in the 1996 draft with a reputation for violence, which seem OK if he channeled it strictly to the field. But when he got cut, he showed up at training camp with a gun. True story.
Lawrence Phillips was a thug at Nebraska, was a thug in St. Louis and when the Dolphins signed him, guess what? He was a thug in Miami.
Gene Atkins once punched out a teammate in New Orleans then came to Miami and argued with Louis Oliver and grabbed Tom Olivadotti on the sidelines.
Ricky Williams came to Miami with a reputation for being unpredictable and eccentric and guess what ... he's been unpredictable and eccentric with the Dolphins.
I can go on and on: Larry Webster (drugs) got suspended; Shane Burton (alcohol) got arrested for DUI; Tim McKyer (bad reputation) lasted only one year; Bobby Humphry (drugs) got shot; Tyrone Wheatley (I don't even remember his major malfunction when he came to Miami) got cut.
Are you getting the drift that there is a reason these guys get traded or don't get drafted? Are you getting the drift that when the Dolphins add these guys to the roster, they are inheriting someone else's headache?
Vick, according to three sources, was completely off the draft board of at least 21 NFL teams from my count. They obviously knew something about the kid that overshadowed his good arm and 4.47 speed.
He got suspended in 2004 and was finally kicked off the Virginia Tech team after last season -- even after his older brother had taken him in and tried to set him on the right direction.
So now he comes to the Dolphins for a tryout and the team will say it hasn't invested anything in the guy and it doesn't hurt to give the guy a chance because, what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
But that's very shortsighted. Every snap he takes in this minicamp, is one less snap a more worthwhile player doesn't get. Every moment he spends with a coach, is one less moment that coach is investing on a player that isn't as likely to get into trouble down the road.
The sad thing is sometimes guys like Mexico Jr. look like they've gotten their act together, make you start trusting that everything is fine and then ... poof, the air goes out of the good-guy balloon.
They revert to their old ways and it always happens at the wrong time. Bobby Humphrey was great for the Dolphins for a while that 1992 season and then when Miami got to the AFC title game against Buffalo, he mysteriously shows up 30 minutes before the game and lays a huge egg that day.
Collins wasn't much of an investment and J.J. didn't expect much from him until he actually worked his way into the starting lineup and then when the team started to count on him ... he reverted to his old ways.
At the end of the day it simply is not worth it, people. These players come wrapped in much talent and potential but tear open the attractive exterior and you get a package full of unreliability.
Nick Saban should know that because he's been victimized by unreliable players as surely as Don Shula and J.J. and Dave Wannstedt were.
He might not agree, but the proof is right there on Miami's 2006 depth chart -- the one that doesn't include Ricky Williams at running back.
posted by Armando Salguero at 1:14 AM
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32 Comments:
Where did Omar Jacobs get drafted....6th round? Marcus Vick....not at all, Cutler?...1st round. So I guess ALL those scouts were wrong about Jacobs, Vick, and Cutler? Give me a break.
It's not that Vick is a punk. It's that he will not succeed as an NFL QB. Run first type QB's have never and will never succeed. I think the scouts have backed me up on this one. If you can play the game someone will take a chance on you. If you can't, someone invites you to a rookie camp just in case.
Dan - with all due respect, I'm thinking you must have not seen Vick play much (or any) college ball. I watched pretty much every game he played, and I can assure you that your description of him as a "run first QB" is way off the mark. If anything, he was too reticent to make use of his running skills - perhaps to distance himself from his older brother?
In any event, I agree with Ottawafan's perspective - the kid is an intriguing prospect with an outstanding arm, and the risk here is minimal. I don't see a QB of the future on our roster, and hopefully Marcus will understand this is his one and only chance and he'll rise to the occasion.
Everyone should just slow down, b/c as I recall Ricky isn't the poster boy for someone with a clean past....and I'm sure many were writng him off when he quit on the team. Its about weighing productivity to risk and right now Vick is low risk. Lets evaluate him just the way ricky was before Saban welcomed him back. Who knows this kid may want to make a squad so bad that he accepts a different position.
Hey Armando, Ray Lewis killed someone would you take him on the team as an undrafted FA with a league minimum salary had that been available to us?
Give me a break, this kid has been under a microscope ever since big bro made the big time, opportunity for mischief has been blowing down his doors, if anything I think he has shown remarkable restraint given the circumstances.
I don't fault him one iota for defending himself from three punks with a hand gun, he didn't shoot anyone.
As for stomping on a DE's leg in the Gator Bowl, if you'd ever played this game that is pale compared to other things that happen on a football field away from the cameras. Art Donovan from the Colts back in the 60's bragged about how he jumped on an opponents leg after a pile up to make sure that the guys leg was "good and broke" as he put it, would you have cut him too?
And like Ottawafan said, who are all these phenom QB's we have in camp that are going to suffer from a loss of a few snaps?
What about Channing Crowder?
He was troubled last year but has turned out to be a model player.
Saban like taking chances to get talent for a bargain. You had better get used to it.
You guys would cheer for Satan if Nick Saban said it was OK. I wish you could think for yourselves instead of simply bowing to the head coach or the desire to succeed at all costs -- including integrity.
You think the Dolphins know something 31 other teams don't? I guess teams like Pittsburgh and New England -- who had Vick off their draft board altogether -- just missed it. What do teams that found Roethlisberger and Brady know about QBs anyway, right?
As for Cris Carter, yeah he was great, but NOT FOR THE DOLPHINS. Way to miss my premise completely.
And you want to know who the other QBs that will miss snaps are ... there's a kid who played at Colorado State (name escapes me now cause I'm so ticked with you guys) who will be in camp and Cleo Lemon needs every snap he can get. Let him take two reps per cycle instead of one if necessary.
The bottom line, people, is that even if New Mexico is cool for a while because he knows he's getting only one shot at the NFL, he will eventually revert to being himself. And he will do it when you are counting on him the most; he will do it when you've failed to make other plans because you're trusting him. He will screw you in the end. Guys like him cannot help it.
It's the tale of the scorpion and the frog. The frog gives the scorpion a ride across the lake and when the scorpion stings him half way across, assuring both will drown, the frogs asks, 'why are you doing this and assuring your own death?' The scorpion says, 'Because I'm a scorpion. I can't help myself.'
Who will he be taking snaps from? Brock? He's in NFLE. You are correct in stating that it is difficult to change stripes, but that is where our opinions differ. I have coached troubled teens and you can have at least a 50-50 chance of changing their lives to the better. Marcus is only going to the rookie camp. If he doesn’t show promise he will quickly be cut. I don’t see what damage that can cause the locker room. I would rather have a troubled kid throwing to some hopefuls, than a less-athletic coach. Give the man a shot and after a couple days his actions will show whether he is worthy of a roster spot.
I think there is nothing to it. Vick is only an arm for the weekend and that is it. They need someone to throw, the kid from Colorado State cant make all the throws for three days. After that he is gone. No need to argue about it.
You forgot David Boston. Rumored to be using steroids in San Diego and Ohio State. Tested positive when he came to Miami. I hear roids are hard on ligaments. Guess who had knee issues? David Boston.
I do have to agree with Armando here. I just don't feel good about Vick coming down here. The guy shoved a gun into a teenager's face at a McDonalds! Besides that, between Culpepper's Love Boat thing, Ricky Williams' hemp-loving troubles and now Vick, we're quickly becoming the butt of jokes in the sports world.
With that said, roberto put the right spin and perspective on it.
I think we can all agree that there are legitimate concerns over bringing someone with all that baggage into camp. No matter how void for healthy talent we are at the QB position, I don't like it. What happens if he shows up and performs exceptionally well? Do we offer "New Mexico" a contract and send a message that you can continue to be a wanna-be thug gangster with a bigger rap sheet than stat sheet and get away with it? Plus, no matter how far you want to stretch this rubber band in the right direction, he will eventually snap back into his old habits. I don't understand why would Saban want to take a risk on such an unreliable talent at QB...
Armando, I appreciate the continual updates on your blog. No matter your opinion on the topics, it's a very lean time of year of any sort of fins news, so keep up the good work...
Hey folks, I appreciate you posting, but no cursing allowed. You're all bright and pretty imaginative in the way you get your points across. Do it with class.
ottawafan's comments are my sentiments exactly. The argument concerning wasted time for our other quarterbacks does not hold water. We really dont have any in that regard. Give "the kid" a chance. I am sure you have made mistakes in your life, as we all have. Give "the kid" a chance. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Give "the kid" a chance. It's almost insanely stupid not to get a good FREE look at him. So...GIVE THE KID A CHANCE!!
Marcus is not a "run first" QB. He's already better than many QB's in the league, and if the fins were thinking for ONE SECOND about bringing in Joey Harrington, Marcus is a 10-fold upgrade.
He's better than Berlin, and he's also better than Warner, Johnson, Favre, and all the other geriatric QB's in the league.
He won't win any nobel prizes, but he's a football player. Without Ricky Williams, and with spaghetti holding Daunte's knee together, Nick Saban is pretty smart b/c he'll get a coachable badass athlete that will instantly make Miami competitive. He's faster than Ronnie Brown, and he OUTRAN the #1 pick and the #22 pick several times last year vs. NC State. Go back, watch the tape, see how he beat them, and THEN make an evaluation. Don't just ASSUME that b/c he's a discipline case and his last name is Vick that he's not worth it. He's a steal for whoever gets him.
I love this! Only in Dolphins Nation do we get such spirited, passionate debate about a guy who hasn't even made the team and would probably start the season as a second stringer anyway!
Love Dolphins Nation!
Love The Dolphins!!!
I could not agree w/ ottawafan more! BTW, Bryan Cox is the assistant d-line coach 4 the NY Jets. There is nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Hey AS, isn't Michael Irvin employed by ESPN? As R U.
Are we sure Saban is still running things in Miami, or has Jimmy Johnson returned?
Armando, what has Vick done that is so wrong? Nothing approaching what the others u listed have done. 1) gave alcohol to underage females at a party, he was 19. Give me a break. 2) stomped on Dumervil's leg. Go to finheaven.com and watch video of Brad Butler (5th rd. draft pick of Bills) intentionally trying to blow out Kiwanaku's knee(worse). Rob Reynolds(Titans) collapsed the throat of a Wisconsin QB by strangling him after the play. I never heard another thing about it. 3) "Allegedly" pulled a gun on two punks in a drive thru. This has not been proven. Both of the accusers had priors. What is wrong with protecting yourself? This is America. Everyone owns a gun. Give the "kid" a chance. Since his last name is Vick, It seems to me that the court of public opinion has yet to give him much of one!
Much appreciated, Ottawafan!
"he will revert to his old self when you are counting on him..."
Ah, here is where you might be wrong. Perhaps Saban blows it and this happens but here is another scenario:
Saban plays Vick a few times next year and he impresses. Rather than choosing to rely on Vick, Saban trades him next year to the hapless Lions for a 3rd round draft pick.
In this scenario Saban simply uses Vick to fleece some sucker out of a draft pick. What is wrong with that?
The only thing wrong with your scenario is it assumes Matt Millen would have done well enough in this year's draft to still be employed next year.
Armando, you need to chill out about Marcus Vick and Miami is going after another Thug. All he is is an extra arm for the mini campso the offense can get the needed work in. Culpepper can't really do anything, Brock's in Europe and Harrington's still in Detroit. The only qb they have that can throw is Lemon. Do you want him to blow his arm out? This is the biggest non-story there is, I can't believe people can't see that
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Allow people to succeed or fail. Not giving qualified people even a chance to do either is not he way. No one took a chance with you(us) at anything in your(our) life???.
If he succeeds excellent, if he fails life goes on.
I remember the first time I watched Marcus Vick play QB for Virginia Tech, and I was expecting another one of those run-first playground dudes. What I saw was a surprisingly composed and accurate passer. The kid has legitimate talent, whereas Brock Berlin, who could be an Eagle Scout for all I care, is a hopeless case as a QB. Having said all this, the one thing that sticks in my mind is Armando's inside info that 21 teams didn't even see Marcus Vick as draftable. That's the kind of condemnation that should seal it. I don't view Marcus Vick as some kind of axe-murderer as some people imply, so I really can't criticize Saban for giving the kid a look. There is legitimate talent there. After losing a No. 2 pick a couple years ago for Touchy Feely, I'm ready for a stroke of luck to balance the scale.
Actually, AT LEAST 21 teams. I couldn't confirm more.
Armando,
You are a moron.
Vick was well liked by his teammate and coaches at VT - he was not a team cancer or "druggie". He got railroaded on the underage girl thing (15 year old girl he mat at Radford Univ on a weeknight who told him he was a college girl), and after that the redneck locals in Blacksburg never let him rest - it was a witchhunt.
As for his ability, he was a pass-first QB with a nice touch who was first team ACC in his only year as a starter. The Dolphins have no risk and huge upside. I agree, Armando is a moron.
Forget for a moment Marcus Vick was an off-field loser. I don't remember him being all that on the field. Saw him play in half-a-dozen games and he seemed very ordinary. And the Canes made him look like a pretty bad QB last year. He's just a training camp arm at best.
Also, I think Armando is getting it done in a bigtime way for us DolFans who are hungry for more information, opinion and analysis on our team. If you retards think he's a moron, why are you on here?
Armando makes a great point. How many trouble-maker/druggies have turned it around in Miami?? I can't think of any.
Heck, Irving Fryar had turned his career around long before he became a Dolphin. Cris Carter?? LOL. Yeah, he turned it around.....over a decade prior to joining the Phins.
Also, Channing Crowder didn't fall because people thought he was a "turd". A turd is a guy who doesn't always give top effort or work hard. There were no questions about Crowder's work ethic or football intelligence. People were afraid of Crowder because of his knees.
Some of you talk draw comparisons to Brady and Big Ben falling down the draft board. I don't recall off-the-field/character issues having anything to do with their descent.
I don't like Vick on our team. I support Nick and will support Vick if he ends up here. But that doesn't mean I have to like him being in camp right now. I don't think he deserves it. I don't think he "gets it". And I don't believe he's screwed up for the last time.
Marcus wan't that great in college, I though Brian Randle was better. Besides if you think he may have grown up from the off the field problems, remember this quote after his most recent arrest and being kicked out of school. "It ain't no big thing..I'm just going to take this to the next level, baby" Obviously he was humbled by the experience
Finheaven.com is a piece of crap.
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